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Question flaw in first 4 origins for original canon?

9 years 6 months ago #1 by Dawnfyre
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    • Take a look at the original 4 introduction stories, there is no detailed powers testing and MID issue in them.
    Why do majority of the fanfics and second gen canon stories have both?

    Tennyo, Fey, Chaka and Jade do not have MIDs before those required for travel HOME for the holiday season from the origin stories, yet they do have MIDs for the trips to Boston.

    Is the detailed testing and MID issue something added to the bible afterwards? Or was it forgotten in the original works?
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    9 years 6 months ago #2 by elrodw
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    • Dawnfyre wrote: Take a look at the original 4 introduction stories, there is no detailed powers testing and MID issue in them.
    Why do majority of the fanfics and second gen canon stories have both?

    Tennyo, Fey, Chaka and Jade do not have MIDs before those required for travel HOME for the holiday season from the origin stories, yet they do have MIDs for the trips to Boston.

    Is the detailed testing and MID issue something added to the bible afterwards? Or was it forgotten in the original works?


    Per canon, students traveling TO Whateley their first term have a special exemption from having to have an MID for air travel. Once they've made that trip, they need the MID. So no, it's not new. It's just fun to write about power testing sometimes.
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    9 years 6 months ago #3 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • Of course, this is not to say that students traveling to Whateley for the first time haven't been hassled before... just not legally.
    "Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson
    9 years 6 months ago #4 by Dawnfyre
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    • The newer stories have a 'require a MID to fly', no exemption assumption [ even second gen canon authors seem to have it. ]

    This is the rubbing point. ;)

    and yeah, the fun of the testing and trouble it can cause the character is fun to read as well.
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    9 years 6 months ago #5 by elrodw
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    • Dawnfyre wrote: The newer stories have a 'require a MID to fly', no exemption assumption [ even second gen canon authors seem to have it. ]

    This is the rubbing point. ;)

    and yeah, the fun of the testing and trouble it can cause the character is fun to read as well.


    As one guilty of the "MID needed to fly" thing, I will point out that in Kayda's case, she was wanted (unfairly, but that doesn't matter) because of false reporting by H1 and the MCO. For her, the MID was a little more important. If we look at Absinthe (which will soon be canon), her dad wants her to have a classified MMID so the MCO can't track her powers. He will NOT get that through Whateley power testing. So there are some who need it or for whom it's highly desired, but it's not a rule because of the "travel to Whateley exemption".

    So yeah, we authors could be more consistent and not do the MID-required thing all the time. I KNOW in Gen 2 that at least MY character will travel with the letter of exemption instead of an MID.
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    9 years 6 months ago #6 by Kristin Darken
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    • What... you live in a world where the laws don't change?
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    9 years 6 months ago #7 by Dawnfyre
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    • yup, they are cast in Admantium.
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    9 years 6 months ago #8 by Kristin Darken
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    • In all seriousness though, the attitude about MIDs probably evolved after the stories that included lethal force authorization markers on some student's IDs. From that point on, it seemed like more and more stories moved towards early registration and having an ID before doing anything else... including a heightened awareness of both the MCO and H1 somehow having almost prescient abilities to track down manifesting mutants almost immediately. And that makes for an easy tension boost / scare tactic in early stories, so its not hard to see why many authors would choose to make having an MID an important item on the checklist. But really... if you're writing by checklist...

    In the reality of the Whateley Universe, a mutant could conceivably travel (even by air) cross country without an MID. All they'd have to do is not let anyone be aware that they are a mutant. Of course, that comes at a risk that if something does happen and you are outted, now you've broken federal law. But seriously? Most kids would have a picture ID from their school, if not the state. They would use that for most identification purposes. The only time you're likely to be asked for an MID is if you do something blatantly mutant like (probably involving powers).

    Also, in the canon WU... there are far fewer good testing facilities than are shown in fan fiction. You can't drop by any local gadgeteer or devisor's workshop and find that they're a specialist in power theory. Yes, the MCO regional headquarters have testing and MID producing facilities. And 'some' of the FBI's regional offices can do testing. Various supergroups actually cannot do adequate testing... but they can fake it enough for an 'unofficial' evaluation simply because for their team members to regularly work out/train, they will have some of the same gear in their gym as is used in testing. On the other hand, most fan fics tend towards the idea of Whateley in an oasis as the only possible place to learn about powers. In reality, Whateley's focus is less on the development of powers than for providing a place to get an education where powers aren't a distraction or disrupt the normal social dynamics/development of the school environment.

    There are LOTS of places... from local law enforcement classes to college supplemental classes / night school... that cover powers theory, and practical control training... as well as job placement programs that reflect the benefits of certain power sets as part of the job toolset. Are these at the depth or breadth of a program like Whateley? No, decidedly not. But they're often taught or at least co-taught with active paranormals. You won't find them in small towns, admittedly... but any decently sized city will offer at least one local program.
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    9 years 6 months ago #9 by Domoviye
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    • I liked in Jade where she gets her powers tested just enough to prove she's a mutant by going to the police and having to do some pretty easy things, like sending Jinn to another room across the hall, lifting baseline weights and taking a wild guess at what to label her powers as. It struck me as very appropriate for a small city.
    9 years 6 months ago #10 by Kristin Darken
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    • Exactly.
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    9 years 5 months ago #11 by elrodw
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    • And notice in Kayda that the Sioux Falls League did some very rudimentary testing of her - and it was wildly inaccurate / guesswork.
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    9 years 5 months ago #12 by Domoviye
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    • Yep. It seemed like the opposite of Ayla's.
    The California team had great equipment but weren't sure how to use them. Yours (at least to me) seemed to be pretty good trainers, but not nearly good enough equipment.

    It makes the world seem more realistic that way, instead of just having everything being a cookie cutter of each other.
    9 years 5 months ago #13 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • I'd expect teams with Whateley alumni to try and replicate the Whateley testing environment - except that they're recreate it from memory, without the budget or experienced technicians that Whateley has access to. So they end up with something incomplete, which is in at least some cases probably less effective than if they'd aimed within their means.
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    9 years 5 months ago #14 by Sir Lee
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    • There some wiggle room around.
    First, there's an assumption that "every young mutant goes to Whateley." Not so; in order for that to happen, someone who actually knows that Whateley EXISTS has to nudge the emerging mutant along. Fey had Leon, Jade had Melodious Silvertongue, Ayla had someone in the LAPD. And canon authors have been on record to say that lots of low-powered mutants who have little problem "passing" for normals stay with their families. But still, legally they are required to register and get a MID. Case in point: 'Shine, who at one point was *denied* enrollment in Whateley (until he offered to pay his way and then some). So there HAVE to be other places to get a MID.

    Which doesn't mean that they will have the same level of competence as the Whateley wonks and boffins. They do their best, but they are often wrong. Hell, the Whateley power testers are known to have run into cases they weren't sure how to classify.

    There's also the matter of jurisdictions. Most of the stories I have seen focused on U.S.-born kids. But other countries may have their own particular takes on the requirement for MIDs. In my own (still stalled...) Mezzo origin fanfic, I took a bit of a different approach, based on personal experience about how stuff is usually done down here in Brazil. But of course, it's not canon-approved.

    Many (but not all) young mutants will have undergone some preliminary power testing before coming to Whateley, sometimes as part of the enrollment process; some of these, like Jade's, is mostly an informal test to ascertain if the kid has *any* sort of powers worth sending to Whateley. Some of these will get a MID too. But there are notorious exceptions. Some kids simply didn't have time to care about that during all the mess their life became. And then there is Silver Ghost, who is not being tested nor getting a MID issued mostly due to political reasons.
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    9 years 5 months ago #15 by Valentine
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    • To expand on the few we know about.

    Lancer found thfough the military.
    Loophole through NASA or whatever agency.
    Jobe, Heyoka, She-Beast, and some others are Legacies.

    Also remember that SPECTRUM had never heard of it, and the "Gentleman Thief" from Silent Nacht thought it was an urban legend.

    Another very important thing to understand, if I understand it correctly, the current 650 or so students, is probably around 25% of the total number students that have attended Whateley as the mutant academy.
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    9 years 5 months ago #16 by Warren
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    • Actually. the answer is truly simple. When the first four stories were written, no one had come up with the idea of the MID card. Then came the arena stories and that sort of planted the seed for them. (when I say this I mean that we started discussing the arena in our super secret canon cabal chats)
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    9 years 5 months ago #17 by Kristin Darken
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    • I was about to post and say "that can't be right" but... I went back and checked the places I thought I remembered seeing the original presentation of them... and they weren't there. Now I'm curious... where DID the MID make its first 'in universe' appearance?
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    9 years 5 months ago #18 by Dawnfyre
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    • I think it was when Mrs. Carson told the students they are required to have one to go home for Christmas, specially if they want to return.
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    9 years 5 months ago #19 by Valentine
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    • Kristin Darken wrote: I was about to post and say "that can't be right" but... I went back and checked the places I thought I remembered seeing the original presentation of them... and they weren't there. Now I'm curious... where DID the MID make its first 'in universe' appearance?


    A search of the stories gives me the answer as Hive 2

    "Can it, Simpkins. Give the chief some credit for not being totally stupid. Even though he hired you," the Sergeant said which generated some laughter. “And you get to be record keeper for the MID recording. Just because you’re recording the information, don’t plan on selling any fake ones to a student on the dodge. The government already has a list of ALL the students at the academy. There are so many cross check’s and balances that it’s easier not to try.”

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    9 years 5 months ago #20 by sam105
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    • In the first stories they traveled by train not plane. Trains do not seem to have the mco hassle that planes do. If this was a way to get Mutants to school with less hassle ot authors liking trains I have know way of knowing.
    9 years 5 months ago #21 by Dawnfyre
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    • sam105 wrote: In the first stories they traveled by train not plane. Trains do not seem to have the mco hassle that planes do. If this was a way to get Mutants to school with less hassle ot authors liking trains I have know way of knowing.


    both I bet.
    less hastle with the lower security trains, and train travel has a romance that driving or flying lacks.

    Chou / Bladedancer rode on a horse, which is also seen as more romantic. [ if they had ever spent a day on horseback it wouldn't be. ;) ]
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    9 years 5 months ago #22 by Valentine
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    • sam105 wrote: In the first stories they traveled by train not plane. Trains do not seem to have the mco hassle that planes do. If this was a way to get Mutants to school with less hassle ot authors liking trains I have know way of knowing.


    Train stations in the US have little to no security. Some are even unmanned stops where people just get on or off.
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    9 years 5 months ago #23 by Domoviye
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    • I'm used to Chinese train stations where it's security is like an airport from the 90's. So I've had to do a lot of research on US train stations and still make mistakes with security and things.
    9 years 5 months ago #24 by Dawnfyre
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    • try Canadian stations for buses or trains, security is zero, other than a ticket checker for going onto the train platform.

    there are uniformed UNARMED security guards in the stations themselves, for shoplifting / vandalism / drunken idiocy type of things, NOT for true security vis-a-vis bombs, hijacking ecetera.
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    9 years 5 months ago #25 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • Well, hijacking a train is less useful than hijacking a plane is. They're harder to steer, after all.
    "Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson
    9 years 5 months ago #26 by Domoviye
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    • Buses I'm used to, but I live in Northern Ontario and we haven't had passenger trains here since the early 90's.
    9 years 5 months ago #27 by Dawnfyre
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    • we only really got passenger trains again in Vancouver area when CN started the cross country via service up. with only 1 station in metro vancouver area.
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    9 years 5 months ago #28 by E M Pisek
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    • Did a lot of traveling by Greyhound and Trailways. Both as a civilian and military.

    Traveled by train from Richmond VA to Charlotte SC. THAT train was the filthiest I had ever been on.
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    9 years 5 months ago #29 by Warren
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    • I can't be sure about this part, BUT I think ti was simply a nod to Harry Potter that was done unintentionally. And since the school isn't really near a major airport getting to the school was easier by train.
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    9 years 5 months ago #30 by konzill
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    • The Earlier stories where overall a fair bit lighter in tone then the more recent ones. And the requirement early MID's and along with the dangers of even getting tested by by MCO have really been racheted up. Just imageine that MCO was as corrupt in Jade's story as they are in Kayda's. In Kayda's world showing up on your own for power testing is a something your not likely to return from.
    9 years 5 months ago #31 by E M Pisek
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    • I would say that its dependent on what area you are from in how the MCO operates. Even tho the MCO is networked like a giant task force, all personnel are not the same and thus they may have different feelings regarding those in the area. A problem in New York may not be a factor for someone in California. Everyone likes to lump how the military operates but the fact is the armed forces each have their own identities.

    Example: The 82nd Airborne has its own set of procures whereas the 101st has theirs. Just because they fall under the same umbrella does not mean that they follow the same boss.
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    9 years 5 months ago #32 by elrodw
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    • konzill wrote: The Earlier stories where overall a fair bit lighter in tone then the more recent ones. And the requirement early MID's and along with the dangers of even getting tested by by MCO have really been racheted up. Just imageine that MCO was as corrupt in Jade's story as they are in Kayda's. In Kayda's world showing up on your own for power testing is a something your not likely to return from.


    But also note that the "good MCO", when they discovered what was happening, opened a criminal investigation resulting in teh arrest of the two Sioux Falls agents. Yeah, there are bad apples, and Kayda got one, but that's only Kayda's story.
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    9 years 5 months ago #33 by jmhyp
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    • konzill wrote: The Earlier stories where overall a fair bit lighter in tone

    Jade was lighter in tone? Merry/Petra was lighter in tone? Chou's despair was light in tone? Halloween was light in tone?
    9 years 5 months ago #34 by Kristin Darken
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    • The early stories were. Merry's was the first fairly angsty story. The next was probably Seraphim near the end of 2006... almost a year and a half into the released stories.
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    9 years 5 months ago #35 by Dawnfyre
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    • Also, why wouldn't the hatred for mutants be increasing, since the number of mutants is increasing*?
    The human purists of humanity first [ the source of the MCO problems ] would be getting more deperate to kill off mutants as the number increases, so the level of harassment would naturally increase.



    * as per the Braeburn Report.
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    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #36 by konzill
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    • Yes Actually I think Jade's story was significantly lighter in tone. While she was the victim of domestic abuse, said abuse was pretty well dealt with right at the begining and then left behind. In compasion for Kayda her rape was presented more graphically and it continues to be an issue multiple stories in. I'm fairly sure that we still have not seen the last of Scott and Co.

    Jade's stories and Chou's stories both have a lot of comic relief, which goes a long way to lighten the tone, I had laught out loud moments reading both. Both also occationally decend into asurdity weather its the boobsplosion or a monkey stealing panties. Kayda in contrast has very few ligther moments, and pretty well no comic relief, which makes the story much darker as a whole, seriously I can't remember laughing once reading Kayda's story.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by konzill. Reason: added clarification.
    9 years 5 months ago #37 by Dawnfyre
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    • rape is dark and has very long term impact on the victim. No-one would ever believe Kayda shrugged off a gang rape.

    Jade's abuse ended, her father is out of her life, and she is focused on her new life, allowing it to be put into the background. The problem is, it will come back later and hit harder unless her sessions with Dr. Bellows cover it.
    Yes, Jade started the school year with weekly sessions with him, that were never detailed after the first couple, so she could be dealing with the abuse stuff in them and we don't know it.

    or, the abuse stuff could be why Jade is such a nutjob.
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    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #38 by Kettlekorn
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    • konzill wrote: Kayda in contrast has very few ligther moments, and pretty well no comic relief, which makes the story much darker as a whole, seriously I can't remember laughing once reading Kayda's story.

    I agree that humor in Kayda is a lot more infrequent, but I do remember laughing at multiple points in the Kayda stories. My favorite parts were Vasiliy's reference to Tom Lehrer, Kodiak implying he'd cooked Tatanka, and of course the Mr. T jokes.
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    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Kettlekorn.
    9 years 5 months ago #39 by Dawnfyre
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    • oh lord yes, that entire sequence with the bbq and Wyatt wanting sauce with everyone changing the subject whenever Kayda asked where the ribs came from was side-splitting
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    9 years 5 months ago #40 by jmhyp
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    • konzill wrote: Yes Actually I think Jade's story was significantly lighter in tone.

    Objectively Jade's story is lighter in tone if you gave each sentence a "tone" rating and divided by the number of sentences. But the events in Jade's story are somewhat gruesome. Jade graphically dismembered herself. Jade was murdered in her Christmas story. She nailed someone to a tree. Jade has a light-hearted facade in her stories and she's jovial in other POVs. But she is one fucked up person who needs heavy psychiatry which isn't scheduled for. She sees Dr. Belows for issues with her BIT. We never see her talking to Belows about her normal life concerns.

    And Chou is a haunting study in utter, bleak despair. She is weighed down by her inability to save her father, her loss of identity, her having to kill someone because she must listen to a voice in her head, her complete inability to open up to her friends (making her rooming with Ayla highly ironic as he has the same issue), her worry that many handmaidens don't survive the event they are created to stop, and so on. Even some of the kissy face scenes with Molly and Dorjee are tinged with
    9 years 5 months ago #41 by Domoviye
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    • Agreed. Both of those stories had light hearted moments, but they were pretty dark a lot of the time. Where Jade did really well was knowing when to intersperse humour sometimes ludicrous humour into the story.
    Blade Dancer and more recent stories appear darker because they don't have those sometimes large breaks just to laugh at themselves. They do have humour, some of it low key, some extremely well done (BBQ scene) but they're fewer and farther apart.
    Just different writing styles and characters.
    9 years 5 months ago #42 by Kristin Darken
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    • Maybe its just that from your life perspective those things look dark. From my life perspective, most of the TK stories seem like fun and hijinks. And if there's not a lesson in that, I'll eat my cheap logitech keyboard (it's just the backup anyway, I typically use higher end keyboards and mice than most of the components of my system because I use them pretty aggressively and the cheap ones don't last long).
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    9 years 5 months ago #43 by elrodw
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    • Domoviye wrote: Agreed. Both of those stories had light hearted moments, but they were pretty dark a lot of the time. Where Jade did really well was knowing when to intersperse humour sometimes ludicrous humour into the story.
    Blade Dancer and more recent stories appear darker because they don't have those sometimes large breaks just to laugh at themselves. They do have humour, some of it low key, some extremely well done (BBQ scene) but they're fewer and farther apart.
    Just different writing styles and characters.


    I note that no-one has mentioned the variation of "who's on first" that the girls do at the airport around Kayda's mom's name. Must not have been funny. Oh well, maybe the next one...
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    9 years 5 months ago #44 by Domoviye
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    • I said SOME extremely well done, the 'Who's on First', when dealing with Wondercute, a lot of the vacation like when Jennie got caught in the tree. But you have to admit that they are spread out.
    This is a different style than other writers, and it's not good or bad, just different.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #45 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • The darkness in the Jade stories is, while dark, concentrated darkness. Specific scenes peppered in a swirl of pink and glowy. They tend to happen, and then ... not resolve, more be left behind. Jade doesn't trail her darkness after her, she tends to be the 'comic relief', especially when being used by the other authors.

    Kayda's darkness wasn't as concentrated, it was more this trailing bleakness that permitted the story and built, and built, and built as we moved along. While there was humour, it usually didn't cut the bleakness, and was quite a bit into the stories before it started (basically untill Kayda herself became more stable).

    Different styles of writing, different stories. Also the release schedule matters, Elrod and EE (when their stories where serialised for release) just happened to mean a few weeks of 'bleak' stories in a row when released, increasing the 'darkness' feeling because they where not being separated by lighter works.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.
    9 years 5 months ago #46 by jmhyp
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    • Reread Chou's To The Mountain. It is depressing with not a pink bunny in sight.

    The rest of Parent’s day she had been spent alone, as the Immortals had been politely asked to leave after the fight by Lady Istarte. Guan Yu had handed the Principal a bag of gold and said that should take care of things. Chou had hung out with Billie and Jade a lot after that as they were all at loose ends. They had all realized as well that they were the three Asians in Kimba, despite their origins. It had been fun and was nice to spend time with the other Kimbettes. Yet it did little to ease the ache of her father’s death, which haunted her that day. She wanted, more than anything, to have him back, to not be dead. He was gone forever, torn apart by a demon wanting the sword that had started this whole thing. One day she figured she would get her revenge, but she had no idea when. She wasn’t ready, yet, but she would be.

    ...

    She also had Molly on her mind. Between Molly introducing her to the parental units as simply a “friend” and the Immortals informing her that Molly was somehow her soul mate, Chou was really conflicted. She had been surprised how much it had hurt when she had been introduced only as a friend. Wasn’t she more than that? Didn’t she mean something to Molly? And why had she just stood there and let it happen? Was she afraid of admitting what she felt for Molly to Molly’s parents? Was Molly ashamed of loving her? Did Molly Love her? And this soul mate thing, what the hell was she supposed to do with that? What did it mean anyway? Every time she saw or thought about Molly this chain of thoughts came back.

    Chou was having a lot of trouble dealing with things and it was getting more difficult to keep telling her ‘shrink’ how things were going. If she complained all the time she felt like she was a failure and wasn’t getting better like she was supposed to. So she just kept piling it up inside. What else could she do? She figured he didn’t really want to hear all about her problems. He had things he had to do besides listening to her being upset by the same things. How many times could he put up with her sniffling about her dad?


    That's just on the first "page" of To The Mountain Part 1. Chou's thoughts are constantly in this dark, oppressive place. Yes, Kayda's troubles seem to be more external and she lashes out against them. But Chou's bottled up problems are no less dark.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #47 by Dawnfyre
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    • The "darkness" in all the stories actually helps in the creation of believable characters, given the premise of the W.U.

    Can you imagine a 13 or 14 year old not being messed up with mutating and being targeted by bigots? The reactions of all POV characters show a part of the spectrum of human responses to that situation.

    J.G.'s Eldritch and Warren's Hive both show the same flaw, a lack of gender dysphoria, specially Hive. Eldritch can be excused, since the mutation into being an artificer could have remapped her gender identity, it would only take some time to reprogram herself into accepting the new gender. Hive is not mutated, the nanite hive could not rewrite Sam's gender identity the same as mutation can. That means Sam's comfort as a female is flawed, it shouldn't be.

    edit to add:

    of course, Warren could be working on a story where Sam's repression of his gender dysphoria to accomplish his duty starts to fail, causing him to have to really work as rewriting his own gender identity.
    Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Dawnfyre.
    9 years 5 months ago #48 by Kettlekorn
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    • Dawnfyre wrote: J.G.'s Eldritch and Warren's Hive both show the same flaw, a lack of gender dysphoria, specially Hive.


    You're assuming that everybody has a strong gender identity and therefor must be upset if they get gender-bent, but some people don't have strong gender identities at all. Take me, for example. I'm not transgender, but I can't really see myself caring if I were to wake up tomorrow permanently inverted. I mean, I'd be upset for a large number of reasons, but they're all practical concerns -- needing to buy new clothes, getting used to a new shape, dealing with confused and possibly hostile neighbors and extended-family, getting used to different treatment by society, having a smaller mating pool, etc. Basically I'd be super grouchy about all that hassle, but I wouldn't have any sort of "This isn't me!" or "This is wrong!" going on. My sex and gender are not a big part of my identity -- they aren't how I define myself. Personality traits, hobbies, strengths and flaws, the color green; those are what I think of when I think of who I am.

    Weak gender identities also explain some of the people who have trouble understanding gender dysphoria. If you don't have a strong gender identity, it's hard to understand the concept of being in the wrong body as anything other than a social problem -- i.e., thinking they want to behave in ways that are masculine or feminine, but society looks at their body and expects the opposite. But gender dysphoria isn't about wanting to change your body to fit stereotypes; it's about wanting to change your body to fit you. And that can be hard to grasp.

    For me, I can understand it better if I stop thinking in terms of gender and instead think in terms of body-weight. I am a naturally thin person, and that actually matters a lot more to me than my sex. So if I imagine myself as obese, I can begin to understand the self-revulsion, because that is something that would actually upset me.
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    9 years 5 months ago #49 by NeoMagus
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    • Kettlekorn wrote:

    Dawnfyre wrote: J.G.'s Eldritch and Warren's Hive both show the same flaw, a lack of gender dysphoria, specially Hive.


    You're assuming that everybody has a strong gender identity and therefor must be upset if they get gender-bent, but some people don't have strong gender identities at all. Take me, for example. I'm not transgender, but I can't really see myself caring if I were to wake up tomorrow permanently inverted. I mean, I'd be upset for a large number of reasons, but they're all practical concerns -- needing to buy new clothes, getting used to a new shape, dealing with confused and possibly hostile neighbors and extended-family, getting used to different treatment by society, having a smaller mating pool, etc. Basically I'd be super grouchy about all that hassle, but I wouldn't have any sort of "This isn't me!" or "This is wrong!" going on. My sex and gender are not a big part of my identity -- they aren't how I define myself. Personality traits, hobbies, strengths and flaws, the color green; those are what I think of when I think of who I am.


    Hmm....glad to finally find someone with a similar perspective on this. I also don't view myself as having a particularly strong gender identity, and can imagine going through such an experience far more easily than a lot of the people I know. Sure it would be challenging, and I can certainly still understand how difficult it is/would be for others, but like Kettlekorn is saying, I have other aspects of my life that define me far more strongly.
    ... . . -.- / .--- ..- ... - .. -.-. . .-.-.- / .-.. --- ...- . / -- . .-. -.-. -.-- .-.-.- / .-- .- .-.. -.- / .... ..- -- -... .-.. -.-- / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-. / --. --- -.. .-.-.-
    9 years 5 months ago #50 by Domoviye
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    • Likewise. Probably why I write characters from lots of different perspectives.
    9 years 5 months ago #51 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • I somehow think, gender identity wise, a community built around writing transgender fiction might be not quite a representitive sample group of society for gender identity issues.
    9 years 5 months ago #52 by Domoviye
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    • True. But for some of us, it's not all we write, just one facet.
    9 years 5 months ago #53 by Valentine
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I somehow think, gender identity wise, a community built around writing transgender fiction might be not quite a representitive sample group of society for gender identity issues.


    True enough, but we prove the exceptions to rules.
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    9 years 5 months ago #54 by Malady
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    • Valentine wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I somehow think, gender identity wise, a community built around writing transgender fiction might be not quite a representitive sample group of society for gender identity issues.


    True enough, but we prove the exceptions to rules.


    What?? Are you serious? I'm gonna assume you're sorta-serious, 'cause this is a sorta-serious topic...

    Sorta-serious Statistics-esque stuff about representative sample size. [ Click to expand ]
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    9 years 5 months ago #55 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Malady, I'm talking about this forum being a self chosen grouping of people who enjoy reading, and maybe writing, stories in a very transgender friendly environment.

    Any sample group from such a restrictive population (self restrictive as it is) is going to be biased and not a representative sample giving good representitive data on society as a whole, no matter how many people from the forum we pick.

    It would be like trying to get a representative survey of the American people on Obama's policies by only asking people at Republican Party fundraisers.
    9 years 5 months ago #56 by Malady
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote: Malady, I'm talking about this forum being a self chosen grouping of people who enjoy reading, and maybe writing, stories in a very transgender friendly environment.

    Any sample group from such a restrictive population (self restrictive as it is) is going to be biased and not a representative sample giving good representitive data on society as a whole, no matter how many people from the forum we pick.

    It would be like trying to get a representative survey of the American people on Obama's policies by only asking people at Republican Party fundraisers.


    I was like, "I see!", but now I'm like, "But I was replying to Valentine..."
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    9 years 5 months ago #57 by Valentine
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    • Malady wrote:

    Valentine wrote:

    Phoenix Spiritus wrote: I somehow think, gender identity wise, a community built around writing transgender fiction might be not quite a representitive sample group of society for gender identity issues.


    True enough, but we prove the exceptions to rules.


    What?? Are you serious? I'm gonna assume you're sorta-serious, 'cause this is a sorta-serious topic...

    Sorta-serious Statistics-esque stuff about representative sample size. [ Click to expand ]


    To have an "exception to the rule" you need only one. We as a group, and not everyone counts, are exceptions to the biological sex=gender rule.
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    9 years 5 months ago #58 by elrodw
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    • Okay, folks - moderator time. We are WAY off the subject here.

    Let's get back to the original subject - which was about MIDs and the original stories and how the MID/MCO interaction has changed from those first 4 stories. If we have to, we can do more than just suggest....
    Never give up, Never surrender! Captain Peter Quincy Taggert
    9 years 5 months ago #59 by Dawnfyre
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    • elrod, that came up earlier also, as the op I stated that using this one thread to talk about other issues within canon stories isn't a problem for me.

    in a way, it makes it easy for us to follow with it being in one thread.


    I have seen a single discussion thread actually bog a server down, the archive of the thread was 45 MB, unpacked it was 200 MB. before any thread gets there, we have to kill it off. :/
    lol

    and just cause I'm sure someone will ask, the topic of that massive thread: The Evolution LIE
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    9 years 5 months ago #60 by Warren
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    • But Dawn think about the people who come into the read the thread because it initially interested them. but now it's wandered far afield and people will wonder if it's ever going to get back on topic. THAT'S why we pulled the thread over. Not because it was "Okay" with you. We have to think about the users as a whole. And the usability of the site which includes the forums.

    If the thread shifts Post IN this thread that that discussion is moving threads. THEN keep going in the new thread. THIS issue is the very reason when I was running the site that I didn't like the comment system because you could have a discussion going on in a comment that had NOTHING to do with the story it was under.
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    9 years 5 months ago #61 by Kristin Darken
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    • I don't know that I personally agree that this topic has gone off the rails, but I WOULD point out that I would far rather have people starting many new topics than posting about something entirely unrelated to the existing topic. Discussion evolves and for the most part, participants in the conversation are going to 'follow it' if they continue actively participating.

    But it IS confusing when the conversation starts evolving faster than most people are participating. Because, lets face it, almost no one will scroll back more than two pages of posts to follow a conversation. And most people will jump into a long thread without reading anything but the most recent posts and the thread topic. So, as a rough estimate... if the conversation is wandering so quickly that the topic is different 'now' than it was two pages earlier? We'll give it a "stay on topic" warning. If it continues to wander, we'll just close it. Especially if the original poster is no longer actively involved in the conversation. The various branches of the conversation can each pick up with their own unique threads instead of each trying to 'control' where the conversation is going in a thread that really no longer belongs to any of the existing sides.
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    9 years 5 months ago #62 by konzill
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    • with so many authors some contradictions are inevitable. I can think of. A few in Kayda's story too:
    1. Other stories depict Crystal hall as having an open Buffet, but in Kayda's story there are checkout lines.
    2. Uniforms where aways stated to be optional, yet Kayda gets in trouble for wearing her buckskin dress
    9 years 5 months ago #63 by Domoviye
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    • With the uniforms, they're highly encouraged, but generally it seems that you'll only get in trouble if a teacher or administrator gets on your case. There's a bit more focus on it than in other stories but nothing seems to be off about it.
    Ayla had to argue with administration about wearing pants with his girls blouse and blazer in fall and spring.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #64 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Uniforms in schools usually exist for a few reasons, and depending on the school and it's reasons for having them are policed differently.

    For 'Schools of a certain prestige' uniforms are part of the image of the school, they imply a certain amount of history, conservativeness and 'grandure'. As long as the school 'pretties' can be trotted out in them, and anyone else the visitors see at a distance seems to be so attired as well, all is fine (i.e. If your not wearing the uniform and not visible to those the school is trying to impress, they couldn't care less what you actually wear)

    For schools of lower social-economic student populations, or especially those with vast gulfs between different sections of the population, a school uniform whereby the whole school population is dressed to the same standards, even if it means the school itself is providing the uniform for some of its attendees, greatly enhances the cohesion of the student body, and the unifor will generally be strongly policed.

    Finally, for a school with a student population of 'discipline' problems, a uniform might be introduced to enhance cohesion. The theory goes that by policing the little things, uniform and grooming, decorum, interpersonal relations, classroom attendance, being on time, etc. the teachers can create an environment where the big confrontations don't occurs. i.e. They can keep the teacher-student confrontations to little things such as 'fix your tie Mr. Anderson, and raise your hand and wait for my acknowledgement before answering' or 'Ms. Dale you are ten minutes late for my class, I'm afraid I must ask you to make up this time during your lunch period today, please return here promptly at 1pm'
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus.
    9 years 5 months ago #65 by elrodw
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    • konzill wrote: with so many authors some contradictions are inevitable. I can think of. A few in Kayda's story too:

    1. Other stories depict Crystal hall as having an open Buffet, but in Kayda's story there are checkout lines.
    2. Uniforms where aways stated to be optional, yet Kayda gets in trouble for wearing her buckskin dress


    There may be some wording issues on my part. I have always tried to say 2 lines - a serving line and a checkout line. Example - in her first weekend, Kayda got food and the got stalled in the checkout line. Even a buffet has a serving line (or lines).

    Others have noted - uniforms are highly encouraged, and as Kayda discovered, there is a process for getting a formal waiver (going through Ms. Hartford, no less). She could wear her buckskin dresses (she has more than one now - some are kind of ... nice :) ) but if someone gets on her case and she has no formal waver, she could get in trouble. Which she did. So, yeah - no contradiction.
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    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #66 by konzill
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    • elrodw wrote: - in her first weekend, Kayda got food and the got stalled in the checkout line. Even a buffet has a serving line (or lines).
    .


    The problem is that while many stories depict students getting food at Cystal Hall none of the others ever mention. Checkouts. Every other story that I've read Students just get food and go stright to a table. Billie and Hank are also frequently shown going back for more food. I always assumed food was included as part of tuition fees.

    And if there are checkouts, how has Ayla been getting his special treats through?

    If I where picky I'd point out that I don't recall other stories mentioning student id cards either. But the checkouts are far more glaring as an inconsistancy.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by konzill.
    9 years 5 months ago #67 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • I'd have to go back to the Kayda stories to see how the checkouts were described, but I kind of assumed that they used a system similar to my college's serveries. We swiped into the servery, which was then buffet style. You could take as much as you could hold, and later come back for seconds without needing to swipe in a second time. (Which means that sneaking into the serveries wasn't particularly difficult, but that's another story.)

    Exemplar and Energizer appetites and GSD dietary requirments make it rather unfair for Whateley to charge their students for the food they eat. I'd assume instead that the purpose of swiping in would be to allow the school to track how much food each student was getting, for informational health purposes. It wouldn't be perfectly accurate (we regularly see students bringing out food for other students), but if a student is unconscious in the hospital for a decent length of time, having data on their daily food intake is probably rather useful.
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    9 years 5 months ago #68 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • I'll need to check, but I'm sure some other stories spoke of them weighing the food and tracking what students ate so the they could monitor them, so Kayda would not be the only stories with "checkouts".
    9 years 5 months ago #69 by FuzzyBoots
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    • IIRC, one of the plot aspects of Murphy is that they're tracking her food intake because she managed to starve herself at least once by doing too much warping.
    9 years 5 months ago #70 by E. E. Nalley
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    • I though I'd answered this before, but evidently it got lost with the old forum so a rehash isn't amiss.

    The dome of the Crystal Hall attaches to two buildings. First, the north wing of Schuster Hall on the ground and 2nd floor 'tier' of the dome. This is beside the waterfall which makes up the east side of the dome and hides the restrooms for the Hall, they were put here for both aesthetics and to take advantage of the wet wall to feed the waterfall. The other is a smaller building of some considerable size on the north east corner of the dome. This is the kitchens, food receiving and the servery of the Hall.

    The serving area of the Hall is accessed through a cut out of the dome where it mates to the kitchen building. It is an open, steam table buffet with some 'custom cook' stations (burgers, omelets for breakfast, hot sandwiches, etc). There are hot and cold buffet tables one of which is a salad bar, and a somewhat extensive beverage bar including a soda fountain.

    From gathering food there are a small collection of 'pay' islands in the open gap where the two buildings meet there the food is weighted (salads) or tracked (proportioned burgers, fries or the 'hot meal' choices) and entered via the student's ID into their permanent file. This is both for the research into mutation as well as a logistics measure for keeping the food order correct.

    While not every author chose to the comment on the islands they have in fact always been there. This portion of the Hall was NOT changed during the Senior project. Yes, you can back for seconds, thirds and whatever, yes the food cost is covered in your fees, and yes it is still tracked at the 'pay' islands.

    It has always been this way, WOG. Thank you, carry on.
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    9 years 5 months ago #71 by annachie
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    • And that's how it will be until some divisor/gadgeteer decides to invent an automatic food tracking system that will use camera's to analyze what's on your tray as you walk past a sensor that reads your student ID, and log everything accordingly.

    (For extra credit it will of course weigh every student as they enter and leave the food area, in order to work out how much food, by weight, the student is taking)

    :D
    9 years 5 months ago #72 by FuzzyBoots
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    • annachie wrote: (For extra credit it will of course weigh every student as they enter and leave the food area, in order to work out how much food, by weight, the student is taking)

    And Oh boy, the fun that would be had as that latter feature gets miniaturized... :cheer:
    9 years 5 months ago #73 by Valentine
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    • I don't think that would work, because some of the students eat more than would be physically possible. Tenny is one of these.
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    9 years 5 months ago #74 by E M Pisek
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    • Also would the atomic structure change to where the weight of the item became lighter or would it just be more condensed thus when weighted the food would still weigh the same?
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    9 years 5 months ago #75 by Sir Lee
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    • Also... flying students. How do you weight those?
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    9 years 5 months ago #76 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Sir Lee wrote: Also... flying students. How do you weight those?


    Actually, that might be easiest to do. Conservation of momentum, watch them fly around a corner and note their velocity going in, their velocity going out, their angular velocity and the radius of thier turn. Do some sums and your should be able to approximate the mass of the student.
    9 years 5 months ago #77 by E M Pisek
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Sir Lee wrote: Also... flying students. How do you weight those?


    Actually, that might be easiest to do. Conservation of momentum, watch them fly around a corner and note their velocity going in, their velocity going out, their angular velocity and the radius of thier turn. Do some sums and your should be able to approximate the mass of the student.


    I was thinking of just having them fly into a giant scale and whatever the pressure was I'd just calculate the impact versus what they'll do to me when caught.
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    9 years 5 months ago #78 by Sir Lee
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    • Not really. That's like saying that if a compact car and an SUV describe the same trajectory and have the same acceleration profile, then their mass is necessarily the same. There are a lot of variables that you are ignoring.
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    9 years 5 months ago #79 by Valentine
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    • How about Phase, where he control his density.
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    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #80 by Dawnfyre
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    • Phoenix Spiritus wrote:

    Sir Lee wrote: Also... flying students. How do you weight those?


    Actually, that might be easiest to do. Conservation of momentum, watch them fly around a corner and note their velocity going in, their velocity going out, their angular velocity and the radius of thier turn. Do some sums and your should be able to approximate the mass of the student.


    and again, Tennyo wouldn't fit that. :P
    and,, literally, your weight does not alter significantly no matter what you eat. it takes time for it to be digested and processed into you for it to have an effect on your weight.

    for a truly odd addendum, I weighed myself after a substantial bowel movement, I GAINED weight after a triple flush bowel movement. I had weighed myself just before so had a very recent weight measurement to compare to.
    Stupidity is a capitol offense, a summary not indictable one.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Dawnfyre.
    9 years 5 months ago #81 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • A compact car and an SUV don't have exactly the same movements around a corner, they will start breaking at different times, have different velocities at different points of the corner, depending on the size of the turn they may take a different path. Mass is an important component of all that, combined with Whateley's extensive powers testing they should be able to get pretty good approximations from just a few video camera at a convenient corner that the flyers like to take at speed.

    Now is it going to get the mass of any of the warper? Of course not, conservation of momentum doesn't hold for them. And let's be honest, a gravity warper weighs whatever they want, they control gravity, one of the major components of weight (as opposed to mass, which is independent of gravity, but since we always assume 'universal gravity' not something we are actually measuring when we weigh people).
    9 years 5 months ago #82 by Sir Lee
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    • The point that you are missing is that there is no conservation of momentum (or energy, or anything in fact) if you are measuring only one part of the system. Consider the classic case of billiard balls: the momentum of any individual ball is NOT constant; the momentum of the SYSTEM is.

    If a mutant is accelerating in any way, his *own* momentum is changing. In order to be able to calculate his mass, you would have to not only determine what is he accelerating *against* (for instance, the Earth), but also measure *that* object's mass, its acceleration and separate the effects of Mutant A's interaction with it from the effects of a few hundred other students interacting with the same object.

    Measuring the changes of speed by itself is not enough if you have no idea of the forces causing it. A 100kg object under 10N of force accelerates *exactly the same* as a 200kg object under 20N of force.
    Don't call me "Shirley." You will surely make me surly.
    9 years 5 months ago #83 by sam105
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    • My guess is that if a student came up with something like this it would be added to the existing system not replace it.I am thinking this for a few reasons. They would want to compare the results of the new with the old. The administration seems to like a layered approach to things. No system is perfect.
    9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #84 by Phoenix Spiritus
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    • Umm, yes you can measure the momentum of a single billiards ball and yes it will have conservation of momentum until something else acts on it. It is perfectly valid even im a complex system to make measurements in a single object during a finite time when that onject is not being acted on by other pieces and then make accurate predictions.

    You don't need to measure the whole system if the pertinent part can be sufficiently isolated from the rest of the system instead. So, again, my suggestion is a corner after a straight piece of corridor where the flyers tend to go maximum speed (so we are seeing their limits, maximum speed, maximum deceleration, etc.) and the flyers are flying it relatively by themselces (certainly enough separation between them that the speeds and paths of the flyer in front are not dictating the mechanics of the flyer behind). In that case, where Whateley techs know pretty well the maximum acceleration and deceleration of the flyers, some high speed video cameras would be enough to work out velocities, paths, distances, etc, and again for the Newtonian flyers (not the warpers, be they reality, gravity, or density) you could create equations to get relatively accurate mass readings. It's not easy (you literally would need to know everything else), but Whateley's powers testing would seem to gather that already, so it's possible.

    Now, if you have a better practical method of doing it for people who would tend to just fly over scales, that's a different opposition to the solution. The fact that it doesn't work with warmers is a problem, but then again, nor will scales, which is probably why they are doing the current method they are doing (checkouts where the plates are weighed).

    Another suggestion if you really don't want checkouts, put the scales in the food service trays. Then note how much is being removed and onto which I plate it goes with cameras and student card RFID scanners near the serving trays. It doesn't then matter what the students do to their plate, because you are measuring what is being removed from the serving trays.
    Last Edit: 9 years 5 months ago by Phoenix Spiritus. Reason: Typos, lots and lots of typos.
    9 years 5 months ago #85 by Malady
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    • Umm... Perhaps we should refocus, on the topic of 'flaws in the 4 origins'?

    And whoever wants to continue the physics discussion can quote the latest person in new a thread? That way they'll notice a thread for physics-talk has appeared? Or link to it from here when they respond?

    I'm not making it myself, 'cause I've got nothing to contribute to that discussion?
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    9 years 5 months ago #86 by Sir Lee
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    • Point taken. Physics discussion will follow in a separate thread.
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    9 years 5 months ago #87 by Kettlekorn
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    • Dawnfyre wrote: literally, your weight does not alter significantly no matter what you eat. it takes time for it to be digested and processed into you for it to have an effect on your weight.

    False. It takes time for it to be integrated into your body, yes, but scales do not care. Any food that is inside you is going to show up on a scale whether it's integrated or not. Same goes for water, as well as the clothes you wear. This is not reliable for mutants, since some have warper powers that make things more complicated. But it does work this way for baselines and anybody else who obeys mass conservation. You can verify this for yourself easily -- set a five-pound weight next to a scale, stand on the scale, then pick up the weight and watch the reading increase immediately by five pounds, even though that weight is not a part of you.

    I don't know what caused the strange measurement you mentioned, but it's exceedingly unlikely that you produce poop with negative mass. Probably you just have an inconsistent scale or made a sloppy measurement; or maybe you forgot to account for having a glass of water or putting on slippers.
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    9 years 5 months ago #88 by Brooke Erickson
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    • Dawnfyre wrote: rape is dark and has very long term impact on the victim. No-one would ever believe Kayda shrugged off a gang rape.

    Jade's abuse ended, her father is out of her life, and she is focused on her new life, allowing it to be put into the background. The problem is, it will come back later and hit harder unless her sessions with Dr. Bellows cover it.
    Yes, Jade started the school year with weekly sessions with him, that were never detailed after the first couple, so she could be dealing with the abuse stuff in them and we don't know it.

    or, the abuse stuff could be why Jade is such a nutjob.


    Speaking from experience, far "milder" abuse than what Jade got at home can screw you up for decades.

    Throw in a fairly *major* case of gender dysphoria (made *much* worse because she *knows* what having a female body is like thanks to Jinn, Jann, etc) and it's a wonder she's as functional as she is.

    Mind you, a lot of Jade's "craziness" doesn't "feel" like the result of her problems.
    9 years 5 months ago #89 by jmhyp
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    • Brooke Erickson wrote: Mind you, a lot of Jade's "craziness" doesn't "feel" like the result of her problems.

    Does to me. Her wacky persona is a just a psychotic episode away from becoming The Joker. I actually wonder how much her personality is tempered by her power. Those extremely studious Jann's and Jana's, willing to spend a couple hours as a spec of sand or as a school textbook. How does that affect one's sanity.
    9 years 5 months ago #90 by Kristin Darken
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    • On top of that, the non-Jade parts of the J team are emotionless. Early on, they still mostly react as if the emotional component were still present... but lets face it, with 3/4 of your life experience accumulates without the influence of biochemistry... emotions, distractions, and so forth... how much of Jade's silliness and 'play' are actually a desperate lifegrip on sanity. One that gets further and further from 'normal'... after all, if Jade takes classes and just other 1 version of her takes classes round the clock; she would accumulate the learning of four years of school in just one year. And she has all the life experience of all those parts of her. Much of which is in completely alien forms.
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    9 years 5 months ago #91 by Arcanist Lupus
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    • Not to mention any weirdness introduced by her mutation's effects on her body. We know it's stunted her growth and made her immune to auras but what else has it done?
    "Shared pain is lessened; shared joy, increased — thus do we refute entropy." - Spider Robinson
    9 years 5 months ago #92 by annachie
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    • We don't know what is causing the effect on her growth.
    9 years 5 months ago #93 by Domoviye
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    • :blink:
    Sure turn the cutest member of Team Kimba into more nightmare fuel than she already was.
    Thanks for ruining my image of her. ;)
    9 years 5 months ago #94 by jmhyp
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    • Domoviye wrote: :blink:
    Sure turn the cutest member of Team Kimba into more nightmare fuel than she already was.
    Thanks for ruining my image of her. ;)

    Why should I be the only one who loves and dislikes her stories? I can't handle her at all.

    The real sad thing is she's now without an author and so her appearances will only be seen through other's eyes. And that might only ramp up the weirdness level since people don't see the real Jade, not even in Tennyo's POV stories.
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