Question El Goonish Shive asks the big question

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Important story arc commencing. The series has always had lots of Gender swapping, but it's always been of the back and forth variety. But now their is a chance that Magic might go away, or at least become much harder to use. And Ted has decided to figure out which gender he would want to be, if he could only be one.

Or, from a slightly more cynical perspective - Tedd has to face the possibility of become just like every other genderfluid person on the face of the planet.

Yes, losing the ability to switch sexes would suck. But Tedd should not equate that with being forced to pick a gender.

I think part of it is that Tedd doesn't know what it would be like to be trapped in a single form. Currently he (using he/his because Tedd appears to use them as his preferred pronouns. Though as a gender fluid person he may have pronouns that shift between different points, this has not been addressed in the story yet) has access to tons of technology that he can use to make his body look like anything he wants. So losing that gets rid of his main way of shapeshifting which he thinks of as his only way to change genders (he was surprised that trans people even existed so I don't think he has had a huge amount of exposure to this stuff).

Tedd also has a large number of associations with different aspects of his gender. He associates his masculine side with his intelligence, science, his shyness and a few other things. On the other hand he associates singing, cooking, exercise, and most notably having more fun with his feminine side. (These are broad slightly inaccurate strokes as he does all of the things in both genders but proffesses to be better at certain activities while male/female).

There is also his father to consider. Tedd's dad has been shown to be discouraging if not closeminded about anything to do with Tedd being female. (We know that Tedd hasn't brough up any talk of gender identity with his father because of dramatic flashback panels when he got his mark). Tedd's dad seems really accepting of situations like this (see elliot) but sometimes it is different when it is your own kid.

Personally I think Tedd should figure out how to go out as male/female while female/male so that if he does lose it he will still have the ability to present as he wants.

… is it wrong that I am jealous of a web comic character? Even when in male for presenting as male he looks androgenous enough to be mistaken for a girl. Yet every time I think about trying to go outside as a girl I look at the mirror and can't even see one. I realize the dysphoria is much worse for other people and I'm not going for a sympathy card, writing this just made me jealous of him. I expected to come firmly down on his side untill I started writing it.

Jarjaross wrote: Personally I think Tedd should figure out how to go out as male/female while female/male so that if he does lose it he will still have the ability to present as he wants.

Oh! You mean without magic! ... Didn't read the whole thing clearly.

That's not the issue, he wants to decide on his base form in case magic changes so that he can't change it any more with the spell he got from being Marked.

... And if magic changes, if he picks 'girl' then he'll also need to get his records changed by his dad and stuff if magic fails, so the Masquerade isn't broken.

Changing records might not be much of an issue for his dad. Ellen was fabricated out of nothing after all.

That being said changing them to often would be an issue. What I would do in his situation is forge records of a transition. Not comepletely believable but simple enough.

Also, breaking the masquerade isn't an issue, because if magic stops working, it's because the masquerade has already been broken. Faking the paperwork is probably less of a headache than explaining "No, really! I used to be able to use magic to transform myself, but then magic went away so my body is permanently - hey! Why are you fetching a straitjacket?"

The fact that magic is changing won't be well known enough for it to be an acceptable excuse. People will just go around thinking "Magic is real! I saw it!" but they won't find any proof of it anymore. It would actually be the worst time to come up with the excuse "I lost my magic." Nobody from the public will be ready to accept that excuse.

The issue with his dad is one I had forgotten about. More often than not he just looks the other way and ignores whatever girl-Tedd is doing. There'll definitely be some friction if Tedd goes for a female base form (and if he indeed loses that spell)

Although Tedd will still retain his TG gun due to Uryuom tech not being affected by the change. So he'll still be able to flip-flop between genders as he wishes. I doubt it'll be that simple, but he could sort of maintain the status quo, remain male, and it would be pretty similar to what his life was like before he got the mark.

Jarjaross wrote: … is it wrong that I am jealous of a web comic character? Even when in male for presenting as male he looks androgynous enough to be mistaken for a girl. Yet every time I think about trying to go outside as a girl I look at the mirror and can't even see one.

It could be worse. Trust me, it could. Without makeup - and most of the time even with it - what I see in the mirror would make Fubar recoil in horror. I know that it isn't a realistic perception - it isn't as if I am actually seeing the monstrosity I picture myself as - but my self-image is so poor that at times I am actually afraid to get in front of a camera for fear of breaking it. Crazy? Stupid? Yes to both. But I can't get past it.

IF you can dress up and look like Audrey Hepburn, but when you look in the mirror you say, 'I look Terrible!', THEN you are Transsexual.

IF you can dress up and look like Fred Flintstone in a dress, but when you look in the mirror you say, 'I look Great!', THEN you are a Transvestite.

IF you can dress up and look like Bea Arthur, but when you go out your friends say, 'You look Great!', THEN you are a Drag Queen.

IF you can dress up and look like Marilyn Monroe, and you can get strangers to pay $50 say, 'You look Great!', THEN you are a female impersonator.

Is there a reference here I am not getting?

Because I think this is supposed to mean something more to me than it does.

Jarjaross wrote: Is there a reference here I am not getting?

Because I think this is supposed to mean something more to me than it does.

For many transsexuals, even if they achieve outward "perfection", that dysphoria just doesn't go away. One can extrapolate from there.

Personally, I agree with RuPaul that it's ALL drag. Hell, even Bea Arthur couldn't be Bea Arthur ALL the time.

Arcanist Lupus wrote: Or, from a slightly more cynical perspective - Tedd has to face the possibility of become just like every other genderfluid person on the face of the planet.

Yes, losing the ability to switch sexes would suck. But Tedd should not equate that with being forced to pick a gender.

No matter how gender fluid you are, in a world like this, there is likely one sex or the other you would prefer to spend the rest of your life as. Or so I assume Tedd is thinking.

His rather hard task, from his point of view, is if I can only be one sex, which would I prefer.

Seeing as how his girlfriend will continue to be able to shift gender at will, and is bi, he as least does not have that weighing down on him when he is trying to decide.

peter wrote: Seeing as how his girlfriend will continue to be able to shift gender at will, and is bi Tedd-sexual, he as least does not have that weighing down on him when he is trying to decide.

Fixed that for you.

Another thing to bring up is when Tedd has an out of body experience he is not androgynous or masculine. He is very clearly feminine.

I think that should a factor in the decision he has on what form he will set to his default when all is said and done.

Jarjaross wrote: Another thing to bring up is when Tedd has an out of body experience he is not androgynous or masculine. He is very clearly feminine.

Wut? It's news to me... Cite an arc or something?

It's with the interdimensional cosmic whales. The first page starts here , and a few pages later you see Tedd's out-of-body experience.

I see! Thanks! Forgot or didn't notice that she was female during that.

Man, the last few comics have left me just wanting to give Tedd a big ass hug, and to slap Shive silly for what he's putting the poor fluid through.

Well this is an unexpected turn in character development.

I have questions.

How serious of a storyline is this going to be?

When did Ellen figure out this stuff? (Probably seems silly but there are ways it could effect dialouge from story arcs)

If she assumes that magic was not the culprit for making he feel comfortable what conclusions does she have about Elliots gender?

If Elliot is a girl when magic changes will he turn back or be stuck as a girl?

How much of Elliots dislike of being a girl came from ingrained social structure?

Did magic know that Elliot was Trans? If so were the spells trying to help him realise it?

Possibly least importantly, what do we call Elliot after his transition? Ellen is already taken after all.

Ps. Should I send these questions to Dan Shive? I know he looks at them but I'm not sure if he responds.

He answers on the facebook group... sometimes. Also, I think it's likely Elliot isn't originally trans, but might now be... I don't know all the words, but genderfluid comes to mind? He's comfortable as a girl and enjoys it, but he also seems to enjoy and be comfortable as a guy. He's both genders, perhaps?

Other possible considerations: if the Dewitchery Diamond "split" Elliott in male and female halves physically, couldn't it have also done the same regarding his personality? Meaning, pre-split Elliott was an un-self-acknowledged trans, but post-split Elliott is just a trans-friendly cis, with the more feminine aspects of his personality used to form Ellen's?

Also, there's other options for a female name for Elliott. Elaine, for starters (really popular at Whateley...). Elyanne. Elise.

Sir Lee wrote: Other possible considerations: if the Dewitchery Diamond "split" Elliott in male and female halves physically, couldn't it have also done the same regarding his personality? Meaning, pre-split Elliott was an un-self-acknowledged trans, but post-split Elliott is just a trans-friendly cis, with the more feminine aspects of his personality used to form Ellen's?

Also, there's other options for a female name for Elliott. Elaine, for starters (really popular at Whateley...). Elyanne. Elise.

The Dewitchery Diamond didn't split Elliot. It created two copies of him, one with the TG gun effect applied and one without the effect. Now, the TG gun is already messing with hormones - it could have an anti-dysphoric effect built in. It was originally designed to help populations reproduce, IIRC, and therefore would sometimes need to transform people who weren't necessarily interested changing genders, so effects to minimize the psychological friction would be desirable.

I think that Elliot has crossed the threshold at which point labels like 'trans' or 'genderfluid' cease to be useful. He can change genders at will, and his female forms have a variety of cool and useful powers. He should just do what he's comfortable with, and not worry to much about what to call that.



Actually, though, the direction that I thought that this arc was going to go was that Elliot was going to want to reveal magic to this mysterious trans poster (according to the Law of Conservation of Detail, it's probably Sam). Which made me imagine a world in which magic becomes well-known throughout the trans community, but a secret from almost everyone else.

On the Dewitchery Diamond, imagine applying it to Elliot's other forms now. Like Heidi, etc.

Susan might be Ace…

Susan might be Ace.

Susan might be Ace!

Sorry about that I get excited about actual representation. First Tedd now Susan. All we need is a confirmed Autistic character and you have all three of my 'invisible' minorities (defined as a minority that is not readily obvious from viewing the person, not the completely underrepresented minorities that it often refers to. Though it may apply here as well.

Yeah, if we were to apply labels (which Dan doesn't like!), it seems reasonably likely that Susan is asexual, or at least confronting that as a possibility. Of course, she may or may not be aromantic, too (I'd need to revisit scenes in that frame of mind). Diane with the innocuous heavy-hitting questions.

Ametros wrote: Yeah, if we were to apply labels (which Dan doesn't like!), it seems reasonably likely that Susan is asexual, or at least confronting that as a possibility. Of course, she may or may not be aromantic, too (I'd need to revisit scenes in that frame of mind). Diane with the innocuous heavy-hitting questions.

Dan has issues with labels due to them being restrictive. Many of his(their?) characters have no such issue. He has stated that some of his characters find labels very helpful. He has stated that if you find labels helpful you should use them.

Susan is not Dan, Ashley and Tedd are (partially) Dan. Susan likes to box things up. Her subconscious is lead by logic (or she is the most powerful one). She is more likely to find a label useful than Dan or Ashley.

Edit (missed the Aro part, sorry)
As to Aromanticism I believe she is at least partially heteroromantic if not biromantic or some other broader term possibly with demiromantic frequency. The closest thing she has expressed to lust has been towards Elliot. Give me a day and I'll find the page, but I believe she refered to him as the perfect experiment.

Now I realize no one else will go for this but I kinda ship Elliot/Susan/Diane and Susan being Ace or at least on the spectrum doesn't change that in my head. It makes it more interesting. Having Susan be in a relationship with Elliot soley for his mind and companionship is what makes the relationship compelling in the first place. As for Diane, I want to see her with someone nice, someone who can convince her to stop her to stop just dating guys for money… that may have come out wrong.

Found it

Or at least the starting point.

Not quite how I remember it, much more laced with implicatons from Dan than actual evidence from Susan but she does at later points refer to her attractioin to him.

Adendum to my shipping habits Elliot includes all of his personality transforms. I just have this image in my head of people thinking there's this one guy living with five girls in a two bedroom house and wondering how the living arangements go.

And today Dan has clarified (sort of) Susan's current sexuality.

Actually, she reminds me of Hannelore more than anyone else (although as far as I can recall Hannelore has never indicated that she finds female forms to be exciting).